1.6 TDCI engine malfunction 😔

[Steveymiles]

Hi guys need some help!

so it started sept last year when all of a sudden the car decided to die and then wouldn't start coming up with engine malfunction, so dropped it into fords and there check all the necessary on the ids and it come up with low fuel pressure and theft attempt so they cleared codes and reprogrammed pcm with latest calibration.

then December it decided to do it again this time low pressure again and no engine sync, so removed plug cleaned and greased ckp sensor and car was fine.

so then in may of this year it's does it again low fuel pressure no engine sync no fuel start, connected primer and pressurised system and check for leaks all ok.

so November again it decides to have a wobbly and low pressure and fault codes reset and replace and bleed fuel filter and seems fine until Sunday it does it again so and this seems to of dragged a massive gulp of air through the system and killed it so they checked it and when cranking no fuel pressure, connected and prime system and wey hey she fires.

so what do you guys think as I'm losing the will to live with the car and I don't want to keep throwing money at her 😔

[andypsp]

have you changed your fuel filter lately

[Steveymiles]

Yea bud it got done the last time it went in about 4 weeks ago 😔

[isetta]

I had a fiesta 1.6tdci 2007 which had same engine. I had a low fuel pressure problem with mine which was resolved by changing the filter, but  if I recall correctly, it had no fuel pump to get the fuel up to the high pressure pump (driven by the cam belt). This meant that when a pipe to the pump was disconnected, the fuel could run all the way back down the pipe to tank introducing loads of air and then the high pressure pump could not suck it all the way back up the pipe again. So if you have a very slight leak on the pipe joints on the input to the high pressure pump or where pipes connect to the filter, air can be sucked in and allow the fuel to run back down the pipe towards the tank, leaving a lot or air in the pipe that needs priming to get rid of.   It might not be that, but I trust you understand what I mean.

[Dee_82]

most common two things that can go wrong with the fuel system are the fuel filter, which you should change every 12k and secondly the high pressure fuel sensor, that's a small sensor that connects to the end of the fuel rail just under the fuel filter facing the battery.  check and clean the terminals on it, worse case replace it. its a really common problem and will stop the car dead if it throws out odd readings.  

airlocks are a pure pain in the ***** but unless one of the seals is knackered it shouldn't be a problem once its working.

 

 

[Steveymiles]

On 23/12/2016 at 1:15 PM, Dee_82 said:

most common two things that can go wrong with the fuel system are the fuel filter, which you should change every 12k and secondly the high pressure fuel sensor, that's a small sensor that connects to the end of the fuel rail just under the fuel filter facing the battery.  check and clean the terminals on it, worse case replace it. its a really common problem and will stop the car dead if it throws out odd readings.  

airlocks are a pure pain in the ***** but unless one of the seals is knackered it shouldn't be a problem once its working.

 

 

Dee I have bought a fuel rail pressure sensor the other day so I will fit that after xmas.

my dad spoke to some one and he was saying about a dodgy wire connected to the speedo clocks which in turn is linked to the ignition and ecu etc and apparently if it does it again then try and hit the dash and it will start, seems bizzare to me tbh but I'll give it ago lol. Hope the sensor will sort things out fingers crossed!

[Steveymiles]

On 23/12/2016 at 1:15 PM, Dee_82 said:

most common two things that can go wrong with the fuel system are the fuel filter, which you should change every 12k and secondly the high pressure fuel sensor, that's a small sensor that connects to the end of the fuel rail just under the fuel filter facing the battery.  check and clean the terminals on it, worse case replace it. its a really common problem and will stop the car dead if it throws out odd readings.  

airlocks are a pure pain in the ***** but unless one of the seals is knackered it shouldn't be a problem once its working.

 

 

Dee I have bought a fuel rail pressure sensor the other day so I will fit that after xmas.

 my dad spoke to some one and he was saying about a dodgy wire connected to the speedo clocks which in turn is linked to the ignition and ecu etc and apparently if it does it again then try and hit the dash and it will start, seems bizzare to me tbh but I'll give it ago lol. Hope the sensor will sort things out fingers crossed!

[Steveymiles]

On 21/12/2016 at 2:44 PM, isetta said:

I had a fiesta 1.6tdci 2007 which had same engine. I had a low fuel pressure problem with mine which was resolved by changing the filter, but  if I recall correctly, it had no fuel pump to get the fuel up to the high pressure pump (driven by the cam belt). This meant that when a pipe to the pump was disconnected, the fuel could run all the way back down the pipe to tank introducing loads of air and then the high pressure pump could not suck it all the way back up the pipe again. So if you have a very slight leak on the pipe joints on the input to the high pressure pump or where pipes connect to the filter, air can be sucked in and allow the fuel to run back down the pipe towards the tank, leaving a lot or air in the pipe that needs priming to get rid of.   It might not be that, but I trust you understand what I mean.

It's been if ford 5 times now and all the system and been checked for leaks and pressure and everything is fine, but soon as they put a primer pump back on the system and prime it boom the car fires straight up

[Tdci-Peter]

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 7:28 PM, Steveymiles said:

It's been if ford 5 times now and all the system and been checked for leaks and pressure and everything is fine, but soon as they put a primer pump back on the system and prime it boom the car fires straight up

I fitted a non-return valve in the line to my fuel filter. It was so that I could insert a priming bulb in the line to prime the filter and pump, then remove the bulb without all the fuel in the pipe whooshing back to the tank. It will also prevent small leaks in the filter housing or pipes from letting air in so easily.

The diesel pump has two stages. The first stage is a low pressure pump, and this stage will not usually pump air. Once air gets into this part of the pump, it needs additional pressure from a priming bulb to get it going again. After this stage, there is a solenoid valve that controls the amount of fuel that can get to the second stage, then there is the main high pressure piston pump. What this means is that if the first stage is worn or damaged, or if the volume control solenoid valve is faulty, then this could cause a failure to start, that would be cured by priming the system with a primer pump.

I would try the non-return valve, then if this did not cure it, monitor the fuel pressure during starting with a good diagnostic system like Forscan, This might help differentiate between faults due to air leaks, or to weak or faulty pump or solenoid. These engines usually need about 200Bar to fire up.

A calibration shift in the fuel rail sensor might be the cause, but if it runs ok once started, it must be a small shift, just enough to not register the 200 bar, but near enough once running.

The valve I fitted was one of these:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Non-Return-Valve-Fuel-Washer-Jet-Water-Pipe-5-6-8-10-12mm-For-All-Ford-/291512397207?var=&hash=item43df7e2d97

 

[Dee_82]

a fuel rail sensor issue with give you spikes and or  low pressure warnings but it will be inconsistent, forscan is fantastic for taking readings of the fuel rail to see whats going on.

if you download forscan then download this attachment, rename this file to fuel rail sunday cut out.fsl 

for some reason we cant post anything useful on here other than pictures so rename the txt file to .fsl

open forscan and go to the "read PID data" option on the left. you don't need to connect to the car or anything

open that attachment and scroll along to the 1450 second mark.

youll see the fuel pump usage go a little mental and get progressively worse until around 1570 seconds. you'll also see the fuel pressure go mental with the pump.

at 1575 seconds the car cuts out at around 70mph the the pressure spikes are literally maxed out, at around 1600 seconds you'll see I tried to restart it a few times, I didn't come to a full stop eventually I got it  going again then stabilised whilst I eased her home. that problem happened on a newish fuel filer, around 4k used, after replacing the filter it seemed to fix it for a while but it happened again, this time it was totally gabbed and I was stranded a few hundred miles away from home in the middle of nowhere. 300 quid later the sensor was pulled out and replaced, ive kept an eye on sensor readings and its been perfect since, that sensor is fairly easy to replace so I was raging that I had to get a garage to do it but theres not much you can do when stuck away from home like that..

 

fuel rail sunday cut out.txt

[Tdci-Peter]

4 hours ago, Dee_82 said:

download this attachment, rename this file to fuel rail sunday cut out.fsl 

Something seems to have gone a bit wrong with the upload, the attached file is a .txt log file, with DTC P1180 being shown.

It is not the .fsl data file that I was expecting. I was looking forward to seeing a mental pressure trace with almost un-abated excitement (Slight exaggeration, but sadly not a complete lie!)

[Dee_82]

21 minutes ago, Tdci-Peter said:

Something seems to have gone a bit wrong with the upload, the attached file is a .txt log file, with DTC P1180 being shown.

It is not the .fsl data file that I was expecting. I was looking forward to seeing a mental pressure trace with almost un-abated excitement (Slight exaggeration, but sadly not a complete lie!)

haha, sorry, nothing wrong with the upload other than the person uploading it. this is what I was supposed to link...

fuel rail sunday cut out.fsl.txt

[Tdci-Peter]

1 hour ago, Dee_82 said:

nothing wrong with the upload other than the person uploading it.

I rather suspected that, but did not like to say

Yes, it does go a bit mad.

It looks a bit odd at 1494 sec, when the APP goes to 84%, but the FRP limits to about 1200Bar.

Then the worst part is about 1597 sec. APP is 0, but FRP swings wildly up to 1800Bar.

It does illustrate a limitation of this sort of diagnostics, it uses the same sensors as in the car. At first it looks like it could be a fuel pump regulation problem, but those wild swings to well over the nominal max pressure (1500 Bar on my 1.8, maybe the same on the 1.6) look un-realistic. You are lucky the garage diagnosed a sensor fault, changing the pump would be a lot more than £300. Were you able to able to advise the garage of the previous results?

With quite a few problems, fuel problems & DPF regens, data collected while using the car can be much more informative than tests in a garage. It is great to see examples.

For others reading this: APP = Accelerator position, FRP = Fuel Rail Pressure (PSI), 1Bar = 14.5PSI, VFDES=Volume Fuel Desired.

[Dee_82]

9 hours ago, Tdci-Peter said:

I rather suspected that, but did not like to say

Yes, it does go a bit mad.

It looks a bit odd at 1494 sec, when the APP goes to 84%, but the FRP limits to about 1200Bar.

Then the worst part is about 1597 sec. APP is 0, but FRP swings wildly up to 1800Bar.

It does illustrate a limitation of this sort of diagnostics, it uses the same sensors as in the car. At first it looks like it could be a fuel pump regulation problem, but those wild swings to well over the nominal max pressure (1500 Bar on my 1.8, maybe the same on the 1.6) look un-realistic. You are lucky the garage diagnosed a sensor fault, changing the pump would be a lot more than £300. Were you able to able to advise the garage of the previous results?

With quite a few problems, fuel problems & DPF regens, data collected while using the car can be much more informative than tests in a garage. It is great to see examples.

For others reading this: APP = Accelerator position, FRP = Fuel Rail Pressure (PSI), 1Bar = 14.5PSI, VFDES=Volume Fuel Desired.

I was in luck, the closest (only) garage near by where AA could tow me were actually pretty on the ball.  before he even connected up the gear he said its either the filter or the sensor, as he got his stuff setup I opened up my traces to show him and after a brief chat he said that would be his best guess baed on what he sees, there was a chance he said it was the regulator but 99% of the issues his seen were sensor related and the cut outs are just the ECU killing itself before it causes damage which makes perfect sense. Of course it was late in the day on a Friday so I had to get the train home and leave it there over the weekend.

the filter was due a change anyway so I just got him to change that as well so it was 50 for the filter (damn ford metal filters!!) 100 for the sensor and 100 for labour, the remaining 50 was my train fair there and back :)

When you go in to a place where the price list says 

45 quid per hour

55 quid per hour if you want to watch

65 quid an hour if you offer advice

75 quid an hour if you mention youtube

 

you know they must be alright guys lol thankfully he must have found my help useful as I even had a small discount :)

 

[Steveymiles]

Wow thanks guys, anyway I have bought a sensor still haven't gotten round to fitting it yet but that'll be my job today .

do you have to depressurise the fuel system at all?

[Dee_82]

after letting the system sit for a while you might get a small amount of pressure, maybe 10-PSI but it shouldn't really be anything, just let it sit for a few min, you can actually watch it drop if you use forscan, turn the ignition on but leave the engine off, there isn't a fuel pump so you will see an accurate pressure.

getting to the sensor is a bit of a fiddle, youll find it easier if you pull the scuttle panel off and move the filter out of the way.

just before you start tho, you did try taking the connector off and cleaning the terminals? if water has got in there it might have corroded the terminal which would introduce / reduce some resistance and mess up the sensor 

good luck

[Tdci-Peter]

13 hours ago, Steveymiles said:

do you have to depressurise the fuel system at all?

The only practical way to de-pressurise the High Pressure part of the fuel system is to loosen a union, the sensor will do. Unless a lot of air has got in there, there will only be a little dribble of fuel out. Last time I tested a start on my system, it was sitting at about 4 Bar after standing for a while. Not much compared to the 1500Bar it is designed to run at.

[Lapasty]

Hi I know it's been a few years now but I'm having exactly the same problem I've got a new fuel filter on and changed rail sensor but my  fiesta 1.6 tdci 2009 keeps stalling if I dont keep the revs up?

[helen90]

Sorry for it being a while, i have a ford focus 1.6 tdci, and im having the same problem, car keeps stalling if revs arent kept up and ive replaced the filter and sensor, any other ideas what it could be?

 

[DannyMc87]

On 1/1/2017 at 8:48 AM, Steveymiles said:

Wow thanks guys, anyway I have bought a sensor still haven't gotten round to fitting it yet but that'll be my job today .

do you have to depressurise the fuel system at all?

Did you get round to replacing the sensor?