Uk4468 Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 Hello, I’ve left my Mondeo MK4 2008 1.8TDCi manual sitting for the best part of half a year. I did disconnect the battery before letting it sit. A few weeks ago, I’ve tried starting it up but to no avail, so I tried charging the battery, to which it turns over the car but doesn’t start it. I try doing this until the battery eventually loses its power. I’ve also tried charging using jump leads via another car and when it’s connected to it, other car engine running, it turns over but doesn’t start the engine. 4-5 seconds it cranks but doesn’t start the car. The electrics are all ok in the car, the lights works etc. Maybe it’s the starter motor worn out due trying to start it with a flat battery? Of maybe it is a bad battery? Don’t think it’s the alternator. We tried to push start too in second gear but due to not being enough space to gain speed, we couldn’t get it to start. Any idea why? Also where would the starter motor be located exactly. Couldn’t find any engine diagram. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomsFocus Posted July 6 Share Posted July 6 Sounds more like a fuelling issue. Ideally change the fuel filter and prime the whole system with a hand pump. But if you just want to prove it's a fuel issue then try a bit of EasyStart directly in the intake. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 6 Author Share Posted July 6 How would you prime the system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 6 Author Share Posted July 6 (edited) Also I’d like to add that a week or two ago we did manage to start the engine it but then it cut out after I gave it a rev. Edit: is it it possible that it’s an electrical/fuse/relay issue, even if it continually cranks/turn over whilst connected via jump leads but doesn’t start up? Edited July 6 by Uk4468 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomsFocus Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 9 hours ago, Uk4468 said: How would you prime the system? Using a hand pump. There is no electric tank pump on these, so once the fuel drains back to the tank, the HP pump can't suck it all the way back up again. The fact that you managed to start it briefly suggests that you used up what little was left in the fuel lines before it ran out. If you remove a fuel pipe from the filter housing, I suspect you'll find there's no fuel there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicam49 Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 If you remove fuse f4 in the engine bay fusebox, it'll stop the glowplugs from draining the battery when you're cranking, meaning the battery won't go flat so quickly giving you longer to troubleshoot before having to recharge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 7 Author Share Posted July 7 4 hours ago, TomsFocus said: Using a hand pump. There is no electric tank pump on these, so once the fuel drains back to the tank, the HP pump can't suck it all the way back up again. The fact that you managed to start it briefly suggests that you used up what little was left in the fuel lines before it ran out. If you remove a fuel pipe from the filter housing, I suspect you'll find there's no fuel there. Thank you for the reply. I’ll try use easystart again with a charged battery. Also I was suggested by someone that we jack the car up, put the car on a stand and use your hands to turn the front two wheels whilst in the air and try push starting (first gear dump clutch) like that. Is this possible/safe to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 7 Author Share Posted July 7 3 hours ago, nicam49 said: If you remove fuse f4 in the engine bay fusebox, it'll stop the glowplugs from draining the battery when you're cranking, meaning the battery won't go flat so quickly giving you longer to troubleshoot before having to recharge. How would the car start then without glow plugs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomsFocus Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 5 minutes ago, Uk4468 said: Thank you for the reply. I’ll try use easystart again with a charged battery. Also I was suggested by someone that we jack the car up, put the car on a stand and use your hands to turn the front two wheels whilst in the air and try push starting (first gear dump clutch) like that. Is this possible/safe to do? I'm not sure if that's humanly possible. But it definitely doesn't sound safe. The wheel will suddenly jerk if the engine starts in gear which could potentially break an arm if you're still holding the wheel at the time. You'd be better off using a tow rope and pulling it behind another car to bump start it. But firstly we absolutely need to know whether fuel is there or not. All efforts at turning over will be wasted if there's no fuel getting to the injectors. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 7 Author Share Posted July 7 33 minutes ago, TomsFocus said: I'm not sure if that's humanly possible. But it definitely doesn't sound safe. The wheel will suddenly jerk if the engine starts in gear which could potentially break an arm if you're still holding the wheel at the time. You'd be better off using a tow rope and pulling it behind another car to bump start it. But firstly we absolutely need to know whether fuel is there or not. All efforts at turning over will be wasted if there's no fuel getting to the injectors. I’d like to say thank you so much for the advice you’ve given so far. I’d also like to ask a few more questions. 1. If the car does indeed start with easystart, what does that mean? Does it mean there’s a fuelling issue or not? 2. Car battery currently showing 11.5 volts on the multimeter. This can be easily charged right? 3. How do you have so much knowledge on this?! Are you a mechanic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomsFocus Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 Just now, Uk4468 said: I’d like to say thank you so much for the advice you’ve given so far. I’d also like to ask a few more questions. 1. If the car does indeed start with easystart, what does that mean? Does it mean there’s a fuelling issue or not? 2. Car battery currently showing 11.5 volts on the multimeter. This can be easily charged right? 3. How do you have so much knowledge on this?! Are you a mechanic? You're welcome. If the engine runs briefly on EasyStart and then cuts out, we know that the engine is fine and the starter & battery are ok, just that there is no fuel coming from the injectors. (In which case, it will need priming with a handpump) If the engine starts on EasyStart and then continues to run on diesel, we know that the engine was just not turning over quickly enough to fire the injectors before. (In which case, it's likely to be a battery or starter motor fault) If the engine does not run at all on EasyStart, there is likely to be a bigger engine fault. (Or not enough EasyStart used) 11.5 volts is way too low for the battery now, but that is to be expected after so many failed starts. Yes, it's easy to charge it again but the battery might be worn out now. If it doesn't charge to at least 12.2 volts and then hold that charge for a few hours it'll need to be replaced instead. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 7 Author Share Posted July 7 1 hour ago, TomsFocus said: You're welcome. If the engine runs briefly on EasyStart and then cuts out, we know that the engine is fine and the starter & battery are ok, just that there is no fuel coming from the injectors. (In which case, it will need priming with a handpump) If the engine starts on EasyStart and then continues to run on diesel, we know that the engine was just not turning over quickly enough to fire the injectors before. (In which case, it's likely to be a battery or starter motor fault) If the engine does not run at all on EasyStart, there is likely to be a bigger engine fault. (Or not enough EasyStart used) 11.5 volts is way too low for the battery now, but that is to be expected after so many failed starts. Yes, it's easy to charge it again but the battery might be worn out now. If it doesn't charge to at least 12.2 volts and then hold that charge for a few hours it'll need to be replaced instead. Thank you for this advice. If there was an issue with the fuelling, would an OBD diagnostic device report it? The big tablet one. Or even a simple OBDII device, would that pick it up? Any readings to look out for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unofix Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 9 minutes ago, Uk4468 said: would an OBD diagnostic device report it? If anything is going to see a DTC then it is FORScan. On 4/7/2024 at 8:59 PM, unofix said: FORScan (for use with Windows Laptop) : https://forscan.org/download.html It's what many Ford owners use including some Ford technicians. vLinker FS, cable for laptop: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-vLinker-Adapter-FORScan-MS-CAN/dp/B0952P4MLP vLinker FD, for android phone: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-Bluetooth-vLinker-Scanner-Diagnostic/dp/B08H82WC8L vLinker FD+, for iPhone: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Vgate-Bluetooth-vLinker-Scanner-Diagnostic/dp/B08H8JHWP2 Search Tag: FORScan123 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomsFocus Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 Just now, Uk4468 said: Thank you for this advice. If there was an issue with the fuelling, would an OBD diagnostic device report it? The big tablet one. Or even a simple OBDII device, would that pick it up? Any readings to look out for? Yes, but it'll show low fuel pressure until the engine starts anyway. The high pressure fuel pump is driven directly from the engine so can only create pressure when the engine is running. That's why the low pressure side needs to be manually primed with a hand pump first otherwise it'll never start. If you've got an OBD reader with live data then we need to see over 200rpm from the crank sensor and 250bar of fuel rail pressure before the injectors will fire. If the RPM is too low, that's a fault with the battery or starter. If the fuel pressure is too low, that's a fuelling issue (pump/filter/pipework empty). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicam49 Posted July 7 Share Posted July 7 The glowplugs aren't needed for starting, they're only used to reduce the emissions (smoke, etc) when the engine is cold. Whenever you turn on the ignition key, the glowplugs draw near on 50 amps for 30 seconds irrespective of the gp coil light on the dash going out after 2-3 seconds. This means your poor old battery has to divide its available charge between starter motor and glowplugs AT THE SAME TIME. If you pull the fuse then there'll be more available power for the starter motor which will be able to turn more quickly. I repeat, the engine doesn't need the gps to start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 7 Author Share Posted July 7 1 hour ago, nicam49 said: The glowplugs aren't needed for starting, they're only used to reduce the emissions (smoke, etc) when the engine is cold. Whenever you turn on the ignition key, the glowplugs draw near on 50 amps for 30 seconds irrespective of the gp coil light on the dash going out after 2-3 seconds. This means your poor old battery has to divide its available charge between starter motor and glowplugs AT THE SAME TIME. If you pull the fuse then there'll be more available power for the starter motor which will be able to turn more quickly. I repeat, the engine doesn't need the gps to start. Ohh thank you for your suggestion ! We eventually got the car to start with some easystart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 7 Author Share Posted July 7 7 hours ago, TomsFocus said: Yes, but it'll show low fuel pressure until the engine starts anyway. The high pressure fuel pump is driven directly from the engine so can only create pressure when the engine is running. That's why the low pressure side needs to be manually primed with a hand pump first otherwise it'll never start. If you've got an OBD reader with live data then we need to see over 200rpm from the crank sensor and 250bar of fuel rail pressure before the injectors will fire. If the RPM is too low, that's a fault with the battery or starter. If the fuel pressure is too low, that's a fuelling issue (pump/filter/pipework empty). We got the car to start! We used easy start and whilst the car was connected via jump leads and cranking, we sprayed easystart directly in the intake. The first few times the engine was very rough but after the third time, and quickly connecting the intake tube back, the car started like a dream! We left the car on for a good 15 mins and just drove it a bit round our driveway. Hoping tomorrow when we try to start again that the battery has held its charge. Thank you yet again for all the help and advice you’ve given. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 8 Author Share Posted July 8 20 hours ago, TomsFocus said: Yes, but it'll show low fuel pressure until the engine starts anyway. The high pressure fuel pump is driven directly from the engine so can only create pressure when the engine is running. That's why the low pressure side needs to be manually primed with a hand pump first otherwise it'll never start. If you've got an OBD reader with live data then we need to see over 200rpm from the crank sensor and 250bar of fuel rail pressure before the injectors will fire. If the RPM is too low, that's a fault with the battery or starter. If the fuel pressure is too low, that's a fuelling issue (pump/filter/pipework empty). Ok update. Today we went to start the car again and this time it had the issue where it would turn over but not start. So we connected the car battery with jump leads again and tried easystart but this time it would start very rough then die right after. We couldn’t get it to stay on with easystart. Do you think the fuel pipes need bleeding as they might have air? Or could be a weak battery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomsFocus Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 What voltage is the battery showing now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unofix Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 battery State Of Charge table: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 8 Author Share Posted July 8 31 minutes ago, TomsFocus said: What voltage is the battery showing now? After many attempts of starting, the latest charge level is 11.6V 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomsFocus Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 2 minutes ago, Uk4468 said: After many attempts of starting, the latest charge level is 11.6V That either needs to be replaced or have a 12+ hour charge then. 15 minutes of idling won't have topped that up by much. It is possible that there's a small leak on the fuel lines as well though. That allows fuel to drain back to the tank overnight and leave air in the lines. Then it's very difficult to pull the fuel back up to the HP pump next time you attempt to start it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicam49 Posted July 8 Share Posted July 8 If the battery is <12volts, then the electronics won't function correctly and you also won't get any sensible dtcs if you're trying to read them. 1st step is to put the battery on charge. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 8 Author Share Posted July 8 8 hours ago, TomsFocus said: That either needs to be replaced or have a 12+ hour charge then. 15 minutes of idling won't have topped that up by much. It is possible that there's a small leak on the fuel lines as well though. That allows fuel to drain back to the tank overnight and leave air in the lines. Then it's very difficult to pull the fuel back up to the HP pump next time you attempt to start it. Have bought a new battery now, will see if that fixes it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uk4468 Posted July 14 Author Share Posted July 14 On 7/8/2024 at 1:32 PM, TomsFocus said: That either needs to be replaced or have a 12+ hour charge then. 15 minutes of idling won't have topped that up by much. It is possible that there's a small leak on the fuel lines as well though. That allows fuel to drain back to the tank overnight and leave air in the lines. Then it's very difficult to pull the fuel back up to the HP pump next time you attempt to start it. Hello. I’ve fitted the new battery but the same thing happens again. It cranks but won’t start and after using easystart, it dies after a second Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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